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[00:00:00] Hi everyone and welcome to Words of Wellness, the podcast for anyone interested in the ways we think, talk, and write about wellness. Why do we use so many motifs like journeys, gardens, even battles when we talk about wellness? How do writers explain science and wellness concepts? How can we make sense of the wellness information overload we all face?

These are the kinds of questions we explore. I'm Daniel Anderson, and we're coming to you from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Today, we have a special book talk episode in store. Our guests are Ryan Oakley, who will discuss The Gifts of Imperfection. Harper Sinha, talking about The Powerful Purpose of Introverts.

William Novotny, taking us through The Science of Introverts.

Good morning, everybody. We're coming to you from the social and environmental wellness group. Today we're going to talk about some of the books that we've read [00:01:00] recently about wellness and the rhetoric that we've seen in them. So let's get started. Just a quick introduction. What book you read the author, and maybe just something you learned.

I'm Harper, and I read The Powerful Purpose of Introverts by Polly Girth, and this book was about introverts and extroverts, and how it's important to be your true self so that you can achieve full wellness for yourself. I'm Tanisha, and I read The Undiscovered Self by Carl Jung, and this book was about your unconscious self and the role that society plays in repressing that.

I'm Ryan, I read The Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown and her kind of core message is letting go of who we think we should be and embracing who we truly are. And I'm Nathaniel, and I read Nonviolent Communication, and it's just a book about a couple techniques that can help you become a better communicator and some of your relationships that you have.

So if we want to get started what do you think the author is doing in the book that's like really conveying their purpose in their [00:02:00] writing? Something in my book that I noticed is that the author was more like empowering introverts by discussing like what their strengths are, like how they're good in like one to one relationships or how they're good at listening versus saying like that they're shy or like in how society thinks of them.

And then also like the way that she. Talked about the science behind why people are introverts and extroverts Explained how it's not just because like shyness and yeah Something interesting about my author, I think, is he took a very critical approach to the society as a whole and almost puts the blame on societal structures for the reason why people repress their inner self.

And so I think that's a little bit different from a typical self help book, because usually you're addressing something that you're doing wrong or something you can change, but he sees it more as a systematic thing. Mine's very similar to that. Brene talks a lot about like how society has put a lot of pressure for perfectionism on [00:03:00] people and Really true striving for excellence isn't just about perfectionism.

It's about, being your true self and not being afraid of, failure or just always feeling shame. About, not being who people think you truly are, not being the best version of yourself all the time. Just truly embracing who you are at every point in your life. And in my book, I noticed that the author used a lot of anecdotes and those seem to be powerful and sharing like some of his life experiences.

And showing the, just the impact of this sort of communication style that he has, he found. I guess I'll start off with going like through the process of what I learned. Rosenberg introduces this four step process of observing what's going on around you and then internalizing that feeling and like thinking about what it, what impact it has on you.

And then like in turn, When you're talking to somebody figuring out what need you're missing and how to ask for that need to be met So do your guys books have any sort of process like that where? It shows you Kind of [00:04:00] the author like tells you what to do and like how to do it something like that.

Yeah, mine it didn't tell me like exactly like what to do, but I feel like it talked about the certain sciences behind it that I didn't know about it's one thing that I wrote down that I thought was, like, interesting is that introverts desire more acetylcholine while extroverts desire dopamine and introverts rely more on their parasympathetic nervous system.

Extroverts rely on like their sympathetic system, so I feel like when I'm like talking to people or like I notice like differences in my friends now versus like before I read it, I feel like I can understand like why some of my friends don't like going like out as much or like being around people as much more than before.

And I'm like, I feel like I just like I'm more educated on it. I think in my book it was less personal steps on how to better yourself, I mean he referenced a lot about how you need to see your inner self or unleash your shadow self, but there really wasn't any tangible steps to getting [00:05:00] there, it was mostly like a critique of society.

So there's a lot of things about how you need to do this, but you can't because society is like this. And not a lot of, how do we change that? Yeah, my book Binary Talks, she gives ten guideposts for cultivating what she calls wholehearted living. And so these guideposts are like cultivating authenticity, self compassion resilient spirit, things like that.

And she walks you through not only what you should strive for, but also how to implement that in your life. And Ryan, I had one specific chapter in my book that like, I felt like I really connected with that was about like receiving empathetically and it was just like something that I had never really realized before.

And something that was pretty mind opening. Was there a section in your book with, if you had ten sections with something that really resonated? Yeah, definitely the one about perfectionism. That's something I've struggled with a lot in my life. And trying to portray myself as the perfect person, or always succeeding.

And I found a lot of my self worth in that. And hearing her talk about perfectionism as just being about The fear of shame and the feel of fear of [00:06:00] failure was pretty eyeopening to me. 'cause you hear don't be perfectionist. It's okay to fail, but it doesn't feel like that's the case.

And a lot of times in your life. And so like she gave a lot of advice on like how to deal with that and how to be okay with failure and how to embrace failure and use it for, development in the future. What was the part in your book that was eye opening? There was a chapter about receiving empathetically was I think the title of the chapter.

And it just showed how a lot of times there's misconceptions about what it's like to be there for somebody. And it just went through a process of not always immediately questioning the person about what happened with them and just learning more lend a shoulder, stuff like that.

And I realized that it's really easy to like, when you hear something bad, you want to get all the details, you want to like, try to fix it. But sometimes it's not always about fixing the problem. And I thought that's pretty good, and trying to have stronger relationships with people. And Tanisha, me and Ryan's book seemed to be more of It's like personal self improvement, but it seemed like your author was more of a social scientist.

What did you get out [00:07:00] of that? I think it's interesting to see because it's not as sugar coated as a lot of self help books are, where it makes it seem like it's really easy to fix yourself, or that It puts the blame on you because you're not confident or like you're being an introvert or things like that.

But then again, I mentioned it, but I think it, it leaves you confused about what to do because obviously there's a problem with society, like he highlights, but like then what? And you're only one person and you can only do so much about how the entire society is. And I think it almost, he takes a very negative, like critical approach to it, which is good to highlight the problem.

But I think. It makes you feel helpless because like then you realize the faults in you, but then everyone has those and nobody's doing anything to make society better as a whole, and he, I think, really stresses what he calls the shadow self, which is your repressed fears and insecurities and things like that, but I think he makes it seem almost more serious than it is, and I think [00:08:00] in the realm of self help books, this isn't what I would say you should read to better yourself.

It's more philosophical almost, I would say. So would you say reading this brought you more discomfort in society, or do you think it eliminated something that maybe a social cause? I would say discomfort because I think this book was written in the 1950s and it's used a lot in psychology.

It's something that I remember hearing about when taking psychology courses and the fact that he was so concerned about disconnect and not being confident and repressing yourself all those years ago when now there's so many more factors that are like polarizing for people with social media and everything else.

I think that's only worsened. So it makes me, yeah, uncomfortable, I would say. Let's start with who do you guys think you're, like, intending an audience of the book that you're writing? I feel like for my book, it's more like younger people and just maybe students because I feel like a lot of younger people have an [00:09:00] opinion that's Extroverts are better than introverts, or they are more fun, and they just have more of a life, or I don't know something like that, but I feel like if you read it when you're like, a younger person, you have a different perspective that you can use for a longer period of time, but I feel like anyone could read it, I feel like once you're older and like more mature, you already have a little bit of a different perspective.

So I feel like it was like interesting to read it like at this point in my life when like I didn't know more, like I learned a lot. And did you read that book like coming at it as an introvert? Or was it an extrovert and just wanted to learn more? I don't really know. Like when I was reading it, I was like trying to think and I feel like I'm like a mix of both.

It like depends on what. But I don't know, it, the book talked about how there's like a continuum and there's no like perfect, you're this or that. It's everyone has like a spectrum, so I feel like I would fall just somewhere like in the spectrum, in between. And is that kind of like [00:10:00] a comfortable place for you?

Yeah, I feel like it is I feel like I've try, tried to be like more one side at some point, but I feel like now. Especially like after reading it like because it talked about how if you try to Pick one side more than what you actually want. It honestly just like more disruptful to yourself so I feel like that kind of because it talking about how you should be your true self and How that is like a better way to live for yourself.

So I feel like Now I won't. Harper, I know you said you're in the middle of the spectrum, but if you try to lean one way, it can be disruptful. Have you ever felt that in your personal life? Maybe I feel maybe if I tried to do like too much in one week, I was just like burnt out, and then I was just like, I shouldn't have done that much in one week.

That was unnecessary. But, yeah. I can answer the audience question as well. I think, interestingly [00:11:00] enough mine was catered to more adults and parents. One of the quotes I really liked in the book was We cannot give our children what we don't have. Where we are on our journey of living and loving with our whole hearts is a much stronger indicator of parenting success than anything we can learn from how to books.

What I love about this is, even though it's catered toward parents, that's something that applies to all relationships and all ages. The way we treat ourselves affects and so even me being an 18 year old, 19 year old that's really impactful to how I treat myself, how I feel about myself is an indication of how I treat others.

And a lot of the time the advice that I give others is the advice I need to give myself and it's a lot harder to take that advice. But yeah, even though it's catered toward an older audience, it was still super useful. I found that kind of interesting with how you were talking about the perfectionism thing earlier, and those kind of relate, and trying to give yourself the right advice it's more difficult than to give somebody else the right advice.

Absolutely. I think, I also relate to the perfectionist [00:12:00] idea, but I think as someone who struggles with that as well, these kind of books almost make it worse. Cause I think that there's so many Like broad statements they make about you need to do this, or this is what you're doing wrong, and it to me doesn't feel very helpful.

So I think that's interesting. Yeah, I agree. I feel like some of the books are like trying to improve you. Yeah. But then you feel like you need to follow certain steps to improve when in reality like you're doing just fine. So I feel like it could potentially make it worse if you're like striving for perfectionism.

So why don't you guys choose the books that you chose. If you're not super supportive of of a post reading. For mine, I remember I was just going through all the reviews for all the books and the reviews for this one were good and also the topic was something I hadn't really looked into before.

Cause some of the other books were about things that I felt like I knew about, just from other classes maybe, and this one just seemed more out of my Normal scope of [00:13:00] books and the reviews are good. So I picked it For me I was interested in this one just because right off the bat I could tell it was different and it wasn't one of the like how to fix yourself be in here books and it was More broad and I because I know that I personally wouldn't have been able to take like a super serious self help book Personally and also this one was familiar and it's something I learned about in like psychology in high school So I wanted to read it thoroughly My mom's a really big Brene Brown fan and so I was like, all right, I'll choose a Brene Brown book but also like I mean everyone deals with dealing with their imperfections and like trying to deal with that and not focus on that and make it, their whole life and kind of all that they think about and so I wanted to see if I could learn some things and develop in that way so So I actually had an interesting Way that I found the book was just before we were [00:14:00] assigned like the book reading I had a argument with one of my friends and I was like I got it I got to get better at this.

So I looked up like just Books that help you improve your communication. And I had started reading it two chapters in, when we got the assignment. And I scrolled down to end just to see if I found it. And I was like, now I can apply this to class too, I think that kind of made me choose the book more for a more personal reason, so I think I may have gotten more out of it.

I did have a question, Ryan, since, if you've after reading, have you seen the Brene Brown I guess like philosophy in your mom's parenting? You see it? Yeah for sure. And like I've talked to her a lot about this, like she, she really loves Renée Brown. And like a lot of she had some stuff like in her childhood that she wasn't able to process until she was, in her 40s and like now into her 50s.

And As a kid, you don't really realize that, you think your parents are, like, perfect, and you don't recognize that they're living life for the first time as well and I think now that I'm older and I've read this book I really realized that [00:15:00] she was, even while parenting me she was taking the time to work on herself to deal with, All those insecurities that she had dealt with that had been lingering since childhood.

And really working on improving herself, improving her communication, and trying to make it so that those insecurities, those struggles weren't projected on me. Which now I'm like really thankful for for sure. Tanisha or Harper, did you, after reading, did you apply something that you found in the book?

You've clearly seen that Ryan's found something in managed to see that in his life now. Have you found like a, something really powerful in your book that you're now like trying to apply to the life that you live? I would say yes overall because I feel like I just have a better understanding of other people's behaviors and like their wants versus before.

So now I feel like I have a more educated perspective on the topic rather than just me like coming to my own conclusions and judgments without really knowing like how it actually works. I think I'm a little bit more conscious [00:16:00] of conformity and what is expected in this society around me and that's what Carl Jung really touched on but I think The aspect of my unconscious self and my shadow self that I haven't really been able to connect with, I don't think that's something that I, in his philosophy, there's a reason why I haven't connected with that yet, and you have to reach a certain level of anti conformity and not agreeing with the masses to be able to see that, so maybe that's something I need to work on.

And I've definitely seeing improvements and what I learned from the book is just like the really simple four step process It helps in all sorts of communication especially when you're disagreeing but even just like last night I had a My mom called me and told me that one of my best friends, his grandpa, is not doing the best.

So I gave him a call and I was just like, thinking the whole time, like, How can I go about this without hurting too bad? And I think that it definitely improved that. And I think it made for a really good conversation. I know [00:17:00] you mentioned you picked your book because of a conversation you had with a friend that didn't go well.

Were you able to address it afterwards using something from the book? Or was it just the way you approach things now? I think it's gonna be more going forward. It was definitely a learning process because you learn something and then have the tendency to take it for That it's obviously gonna be correct Like this is the new right and I think it takes some like blending to figure out like how it's gonna work for you definitely initially right after I tried to Use that process, but it came out more robot y like not authentic, so it's definitely takes a blend, like you don't want to be talking like a therapist or a robot to like one of your close friends.

So it'll definitely be like a learning thing, but I think it's good to have like in the back of mind. This is like more of a broad question, but I feel like all of our books were like a little bit different in the way they like spoke. Would you say your book was more like focusing on the science or focusing on just like every overall [00:18:00] ideas?

I can start. One thing I loved about the book is that it was like very conversational and you felt like you were essentially talking to Brené and that was just really helpful because like sometimes you can just get lost when it's like too scientific, too technical which is really disappointing because you're just there to learn and to develop and grow and yeah, she does a great job of Getting her message across while still making it simple.

She's a lot of great metaphors. Yeah mine was Not super science terms, but I will say his work with the shadow self and the undiscovered self definitely has some psychology Aspects to it, and I think if there were some more of that I would be a little bit more inclined to Believe all his work about the shadow self and so that's something that I would want to follow up with after So my book didn't have the most Scientific reasoning, but it did feel like it had a lot of like anecdotal reasoning Where just about every chapter he [00:19:00] used like an anecdote or two about personal experience that he'd had with one of his patients or something.

And I got a lot out of that. So there wasn't the most scientific jargon type stuff like that. It didn't confuse you, but it definitely felt like there was, like, proof for his method there. And I thought that was pretty powerful. No, yeah, mine was, like, similar. I feel like it was more basic language, but There were some science concepts, but they were written in a way that was super easy to understand and I already knew the topics that were being talked about from classes in the past.

So I feel like it was easy to understand. The way he wrote it was just straight up, so I feel like the language just made it less scientific, even though there were scientific concepts in the book, which is nice. Do you all think that your book fits well in the social environmental category?

I feel like mine fits well in the social category because it has to do a lot with behavior and relationships and I see how it could fit in the environmental category just as a whole because like people [00:20:00] exist in the environment and like relation, that's where relationships like form. Yeah. But I feel like it fits more into the social category because it's focusing on people's like personalities.

I would say my book definitely has to do with the the social environment, but I don't know if it's like an environmental book. He used a lot of anecdotes about like when he was intervening in different like cultural disputes. If it was like a gang type thing that he was trying to work out through the like his nonviolent communication style.

So it's definitely like in the social environment, but I wouldn't say it was like a green book. I would say mine also fits more social, but it definitely touched on some of the environmental, too. And I think environmental in terms of your surroundings, but then also what we think of more typically as an environmental.

He talks about how urbanization and things like that have distanced people from their true self. And again, this was in the 1950s, so I think that Sentiment is only worse now. I would also say touches on the social not as much [00:21:00] environmental like I've talked about it's all about working on yourself and then that is gonna affect how others perceive you and how You know kind of everyone works together and so not much environmental so Ryan you mentioned you liked the conversational like pace of the book Could you go more into what parts of the rhetoric that you did enjoy and then maybe try to find something that you didn't Resonate with as much.

Yeah I like I said, I really like the conversational aspects as well as the metaphors she was using I really enjoy metaphors just because they allow you to connect more deeply into the reading and related to something else in your life So she would use things like the dig deep button which she would describe it as just like a button that you hit to really continue to push forward.

And she talks about how that's overused a lot of the time, and that we over push ourselves, we over exhaust ourselves, and that we really need to take time for self care. And so I really like that. I'm talking a lot about like armor, like we often protect ourselves in armor, trying to make ourselves look more [00:22:00] mighty, powerful, protected than we really are.

And underneath that, we're very vulnerable. In terms of what I didn't like, there really wasn't much. She's a great writer. She knows how to communicate her ideas well. And so I really didn't have any complaints. Yeah, my, I liked also how in my book the author used metaphors. I feel like one of her like purposes for writing the book was to empower people that are introverts.

So she would use Metaphors, like I have one right here, and she, like she wrote, quiet people often produce the loudest performance. And I feel like things like that kind of help emphasize just her ideas and make it easier to understand what she's trying to her purpose of writing the book is. Something in the rhetoric that I may have not have questioned enough was just a authority, that Rosenberg takes in his method.

He it's really easy just to take what he says as absolute truth, but I think if you just look into it, there can be, like, some problems with it that he doesn't quite address. [00:23:00] But overall, I did like the way he went about it with pushing the method up front and then using anecdotes to back it up.

I think I had less metaphor. But I definitely, something notable about his writing is the very critical approach he takes and the tone. He has a very negative, but negative in wanting to change for the better kind of tone about society, and I think it creates a sense of urgency, but like I mentioned, not a sense of urgency to fix yourself, but to fix everything around you.

I know I mentioned that my book had uncovered some uncomfortable truths and left me wanting to change things. Does anyone else have that feeling about their book? I was actually thinking about this. I feel like my author kind of Covered, didn't talk about some of the uncomfortable truths Because I remember this from a podcast like a week or two ago Where it was mentioned how introverts like a lot of introverts do deal with like depression or like [00:24:00] sadness But like I feel like the whole book was about empowering them and like talking about their pro like pros but I feel like in reality like There is more struggle than what was talked about in the book So I feel like the author did cover that a bit but at the same time I feel the whole point of the book was to like not talk downly about it So it makes sense why they did that.

So you think it was a little too positive? Yeah, like sugar coated. Yeah, there was a part where I was talking about how introverts Like a lot of them value like solitude and gaining energy through reading or like the gym and stuff But I feel like in reality like sometimes it's not exactly like that So yeah, I feel like it just made it sound like a little bit better than some people's realities.

I think in my book

I'm sorry. I'm blanking. You go repeat the question. Yeah, were there any uncomfortable truths? Yeah, I think just [00:25:00] a it's easy to take what he says and apply it immediately. I think to be more authentic, like just within yourself you need to take what he says and then mix it in with your own personal style.

So I think that's like an uncomfortable truth is that it's not going to be a perfect fix. And you shouldn't take everything that he says as absolute truth, I think just making sure that you still protect your own authenticity is important. I think that's the reason why I struggle with these kind of books, because they feel so scripted and anything you take from that isn't going to seem authentic, but I guess that is true.

You need to learn how to make it work for you. Yeah, mine was also kinda having to read about authenticity. That's something I struggle with for a bit. And it's really easy to kinda live in ignorance and just be okay with believing that you're someone that you're not. But reading a book like this kinda forces you to come to terms and reckon with the fact that you fall short of who you try to portray yourself as a lot of the time.

And despite the fact that people might not see that it's still the truth. And so definitely having to wrestle with that was difficult. [00:26:00] And would you guys say that like in a transition period, like this past year where we've graduated high school and then now are in our second semester of a first year at Carolina, would you say that's like a, these transition periods are harder times to remain authentic?

Yeah, I would say so, especially like during the beginning of a transition period, cause you're just like, when we got here, we're meeting so many people and you not put on a show, but you're, you do, you act a little bit different with like new people versus people that you've known for years, but I feel like once you once you get past like the transition point, I feel like it, Goes back to normal, but just like, when you first Transition is just like a lot, so you can tend to act different than how you used to.

I think that concept relates a lot to my book in terms of conformity and going with the masses. So I, and I think that's why like freshman year looks very different from junior year, like socially for a lot of [00:27:00] people is because they are trying to conform and then almost find that undiscovered self and who they really are and who they want to spend their time around.

And so I would say yes, I think that the way I Have approached meeting a lot of new people. Maybe it's not the most authentic as I would with people I've known for years. Yeah, I would agree to some extent. I, like in high school, I had a couple like really deep relationships and friendships. But I was also out of smaller high school, so I was friends with everybody.

And I think a lot of those like more shallower friendships Weren't as like my authentic self. I was trying to be that perfect person. And so I think coming to a school where I didn't know many people allowed me to try to start on the right foot and be my authentic self right from the start and so I think that has been like a really good experience, but at the same time You do want people to like you and like you don't want to [00:28:00] step too far.

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like my book actually talked a little bit about that because it mentioned how sometimes you see like an extroverted person see they have 100 friends but like in reality like how like only so many of those friends are really close like Getting to know their like authentic self versus if you're introverted you might only have three or four good friends But they might be like you can be your full true self and in like reality that's almost like equivalent just You're getting like different things because you're just like spending time with less people Tanisha, would you say that kind of what we just went through would Carl Jung be pretty critical of that?

of like dropping your authenticity? I would say so, yeah. I think it reflects what, exactly what he's talking about, but in one setting, like in Chapel Hill on campus. And I think, but I think something that's really difficult about it and he takes a very critical [00:29:00] approach, like I said, and there's honestly nothing you can do about it.

There are so many people in college and with the way. our society works. If you walk by someone you see all the time and you don't smile or you don't say hi, that it that would be rude to some people, but then in his eyes that might be like unauthentic. And so I think his very critical approach to it is almost unrealistic.

But I but then again at the same time I do think at some point after you've been here long enough you do need to find the people who Do make you feel like your most comfortable self or find the things that you like to do but again I think that takes time. If everybody wants to go around and give a a last thing about their book and if they would recommend it to somebody or what they should really just take from it a last thing about my book is or who I'd recommend it to is I feel like if you're interested in learning about like the science behind behavior and just learning about like honestly your friends and like family members I feel like this book is definitely worth reading just [00:30:00] to have a more educated perspective.

And I feel even though it doesn't talk about some of the hidden bad things that happen if you act in certain ways, overall, I feel like it's more of an empowering and educational book versus a critical book. So I feel like it is definitely good to read it even if it's not a perfect, authentic written that way.

I would say that I would definitely recommend this book to just about anyone, even if you aren't really going through like communication struggles. I think there's definitely something that can be said about having that kind of like process in the back of your mind for if you're having like difficulties communicating with somebody.

Especially like in the professional setting with people that you aren't quite as comfortable with, it's good to have a process so that you can be more able to connect with everybody. So I would definitely recommend this book even if you aren't really struggling with that. I would recommend my book and while I don't [00:31:00] necessarily see it as a self help book, I think it's a good place to start because it leaves you so curious and critical of the things that are going on around you that it opens up doors to thinking about.

And so I think that would be a great starting point to read a book that has more tangible steps on how to better yourself. I would definitely recommend my book. I think it does depend on what you're looking for. If you're looking for a step by step, like structured guide of how to like, Do things improve yourself.

This might not be the best thing. It's definitely more about like reflection and mindset shifts than anything else So if you are struggling with like perfectionism self doubt Or feeling like you're struggling to meet the expectations of those around you. I think this book can definitely help shift your perspective Thanks, everybody What an enjoyable conversation I feel like you've really brought out the strengths of these books and the ways they overlap and can contribute to conversations on wellness writing Thanks to Ryan, Harper, Will, and Tanisha.

And thanks [00:32:00] to our listeners. Stay tuned for another episode of Words of Wellness.