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[00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome to Words of Wellness, the podcast for anyone interested in the ways we think, talk, and write about wellness. Why do we use so many motifs like journeys, gardens, even battles when we talk about wellness? How do writers explain science and wellness concepts? How can we make sense of the wellness information overload we all face?

These are the kinds of questions we explore. I'm Daniel Anderson, and we're coming to you from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Today we have a special Book Talk episode in store. Our guests are Sydney Cummings, discussing Stop Overthinking, 23 Techniques to Relieve Stress, Stop Negative Spirals, Declutter Your Mind, and Focus on the Present.

Meg Jenkins, with the book Being Peace. Arnav Garg, looking at the Tao Te Ching. Andy Peta will take us through the pocket, Thomas Merton [00:01:00] and Manny Williams with the gifts of imperfection. Let go of who you think you're supposed to be and embrace who you are, your guide to a wholehearted life. Let's get started.

Hi. So we are the spiritual wellness group and I have four of my colleagues with me and we all read different wellness books, so we're gonna talk about. our books as individuals and how that relates to spiritual wellness. But for right now, if you could introduce yourself and give a brief summary of your book before we move on.

So my name is Meg. My book is Being Peace by Thich Nhat Hanh and my book is pretty much about finding peace within yourself and learning how to deal with certain issues that will cause you like

I don't know what the word I'm looking for, but like issues that are going to cause you conflict in your life. It's about finding that peace within yourself, learning about like compassion and learning about like how mindful you are of like your own actions and like how aware you [00:02:00] are of your peace.

My name is Manny and my book was The Gift of Imperfection by Brene Brown. And she really dove into the like perfectionistic culture that's developed in our society and how to take a step back from that and find meaning and purpose that's unrelated from your achievements and your productivity.

My name is Arnav, and my book was Tao Tse Ching. It focuses on Taoist philosophy. This kind of has a huge connection with nature. A lot of the principles that he talks about, he connects with nature very well. For example, like effortless action, leadership and humility, and then like opposites and balance.

My name is Andy. The book I read was The Pocket Thomas Merton. It's a collection of Thomas Merton's works. He was a Christian monk and it, the book just goes through many of his like philosophies and anecdotes regarding the world and religion. I'm [00:03:00] Sydney. My book is, the title of it is super long, so I'm only going to say the full title once.

It is Stop Overthinking, 23 Techniques to Relieve Stress, Stop Negative Spirals, Declutter Your Mind, and Focus on the Present, The Path to Calm. And my book basically was just that. It was a bullet point, how to throw a bunch of ideas at you. Ways to exactly stop that overthinking, bring yourself back to the present.

We had, I don't know, a hundred wellness books on that original list. What made you choose the book that you chose? I chose the book that I chose because I've read about different types of philosophy and I've, stoicism is like a big thing that I've been reading about recently and you know this was similar to that in some senses.

I just took a quick length, quick glance over the synopsis and it resonated well in that sense. So it was something that just continued on to the path of reading and learning more about philosophy in general. I think I chose my book because I've heard of Brene Brown before. I feel like I've come across a lot of quotes that she's said and I always thought she was really smart and had [00:04:00] some cool things to say.

So I wanted to read a whole book of hers. And also I think that it is very hard to not tie your self worth to what you can accomplish. So I was just curious to be like. What is the alternative? Because I think it's really easier said than done in when everyone else is and society's set up for your worth to be attached to those things.

I chose my book because I feel like it resonates with the current events that are going on. Like being in college, there are going to be a lot of stressful moments and like stressful times in your life and learning how to deal with those. Within yourself is something that I think a lot of like students could really benefit from and I think a lot of people would find It like really helpful to learn how to handle those stressful moments and like Anxiety inducing moments.

Yeah, Maddie mine was my idea for choosing. It was really similar to yours. I think [00:05:00] I had again Nick Trenton's 23 techniques Going from high school to college. Everyone says it's a big change and I think going from like changing the rigor of your courses from high school to college is a big deal. And I think finding ways to stop those negative feelings is really important for success in the future.

I chose my book almost exclusively because I thought that the author, Thomas Merton, seemed really interesting. He was a monk and a hermit. He was a social activist, a political activist. He has some really interesting ideas about breaching the boundary between religions. Yeah, just very interesting.

So we talked about why you chose it. What did you like? What did you not like about it, your books? I can go. I liked how simplistic mine was for as long as the title was. I thought it was very cut and dry. Like you can do this, you can do that, you can do this, but I think that was also a negative. As I feel, we've talked about authenticity in this class, and I think that's [00:06:00] also what made Nick Trenton's book not very authentic.

I think some of the techniques, such as meditation, which we'll get into later, or simply sitting outside in the sun is stuff that you can Google. Give you a really long list, something that's just not very authentic. Yeah, mine is similar, like it, like something I really liked about it is it gave you almost like a list of things that you can do to help be more like peaceful and like in your own mind and some of that is just like Breathe cons consitiously, and it's yes, that's very useful and stuff, but I feel like the book was also just very vague in its directions, and it didn't give any scientific stuff behind the suggestions.

It just told you normal stuff that I feel like you could Google and stuff that's pretty easy to figure out. But I do think that overall it was like a really good book because it does help you go a little bit deeper into each kind of listed thing, but yeah, I agree with what you said.

So do you guys think like your books are just checklists of things that you could do if something goes wrong? I think, and I think mine was made super simplistic that [00:07:00] it's almost diminishing that it's not that easy, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think they put it very Nick trying to put it very elementary to where it's almost diminishing like the reality of it.

If that makes sense. Yeah, I feel like a lot of the time because the wellness book industry is very saturated, there's so many self help books out there, I feel like people try and make their books stand out by being like, cure yourself fast, five easy ways, and they like put numbers attached to it to make you like, choose the quick fix but I think the reality is there is no quick fix and that's what I liked about my book is that Brene Brown talked about she's called her like spiritual unraveling when she decided that she wanted to quit her perfectionism.

And cultivate a more healthy mindset and she went to her therapist and asked for Like steps to fix herself and her therapist was like that's just not how that works And so I think what's cool about my book is that it's not really like steps, but [00:08:00] it's more Like she speaks very Conversationally and so it as you get going like it's as if like her voice becomes your inner voice and she demonstrates how to have That like positive inner voice because I know a lot of the time like people's like inner voices can be that inner critic and so it's a good demonstration of what it's like to talk to yourself in a kind way.

That's really insightful. Like how you said what she's saying becomes your own inner voice. Yeah, I feel like my book wasn't necessarily like a checklist in any sense. It was very like connection based and okay, how do I connect my thoughts with things that are like materialistically real?

Because you have to realize everything we're thinking about, it's just it's literally just all in our head. But when you're able to ground it on something like, for example, nature that we know is physically there and sustained forever in the world, it helps you just move slowly and think very positively over different things that are going on in life.

I really enjoyed the content of my novel, but I feel like the structure was a little lacking. It's a chopped [00:09:00] up collection of many of Thomas Merton's longer volumes and ordered as the editor thought made sense, so it's a lot of like pieces that got taken out of context and it's just like the short bursts of content that's interesting but not really centered in anything.

Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Sure, it's like the discussion just ends. It's some like really thought provoking point and then it's just over its next ton to the next thing. And it's just. There's just not enough time to think about it, and there's not enough rephrasing to see different angles of it.

Absolutely, and I feel like wellness books, like you've said, there's thousands of them now, and I think their authors are looking for ways to make them different. But I think a theme that we've noticed across all of our books that we've talked in class would be metaphors. Yeah. Did your book use any metaphors?

If so, what were they and do you think they were effective? I think one that really stood out to me is when she said like perfectionism is like lugging around a 20 pound shield and I thought that [00:10:00] was cool because it put in the perspective that people Like develop all these perfectionistic tendencies and they think it's to protect them and they think all the anxiety is to like, oh if I think of it first then it won't be as bad when it actually happens and like thinking of all those worst case scenarios, but what she's saying is that Carrying all those burdens and expectations is actually very tiring and doesn't actually help you because how Much is something gonna help you if you're like dragging it along with you And it's like her whole point is that 20 pound shield is not actually protecting you but weighing you down and preventing you from Achieving everything you can and being your best most truest self.

So did you say it was effective? I think so. I Think that my book has this big overarching metaphor of connecting yourself to like nature and things in nature and so like it talks about how you can't really have like peace out [00:11:00] in the outside world until you have peace within yourself, and then it uses things like it talks about the Sun and like the environmental like kind of positives that you can go outside and do and it really connects it to like whenever you are feeling like Stressful or like anxiety on the inside.

It's like almost like the outside and like the nature part just doesn't seem as appealing and then it also flips it around and helps it to where it seems like nature also helps you like de stress and helps you find more peace like within yourself. So I feel like mine's an overarching metaphor comparing like yourself to nature and like the peacefulness of the outdoors like within the peacefulness of yourself.

Yeah, that definitely connects with something of some of the topics in my book. One example was like acting in harmony with nature without like excessive force or struggle. It was, yeah, similar to that, just going with the natural flow of things. Like speaking of like flow and like nature do you guys think sometimes like you can go with the flow in college life, but while [00:12:00] you're also like doing your work I'm trying to say while you're still trying to be productive, like you really just go with the flow and relax.

Is that something you guys have found a balance with? I think it totally depends on the kind of person you are. I think you're what we call type A or type B, and type A people usually aren't. They're like and there's no right or wrong to this, but it's either you like to have a plan, you need to know what you're doing, what time, where you're going, and other people aren't that way, and it's totally a different lifestyle, and I think your question totally depends on the person.

Yeah, that makes sense. I had a very simplistic metaphor going back to that conversation in mine. Like I said, my whole book was very simplistic, but Nick Trenton talked about the, our like fearful and anxious emotions that if they're in the car with us, they're in the passenger seat. They're not in the driver's seat.

And clearly and it said that those emotions, those negative emotions don't get to dictate where we're going. And I think we can make the connection there. That we need to have control of our lives or negative emotions shouldn't be controlling our lives. [00:13:00] And I think it was effective for people to understand the connection, but I think it was ineffective, like I said before, in simplifying how complicated those emotions can be.

Do you think that your books diminished things like that? Does that make sense? Yeah, I understand. I don't think so. I think like the way that my book is written. It's written like a thousand years ago or something, but it was, it's like these thoughts and like these social things are honestly so prevalent in today's day and age.

And it's such a privilege that we have these problems, honestly, to wow, like my bad emotions are really like hunkering me down to that's a huge privilege that's the hardest like problem that we have for the day. And so what he talks about is not necessarily like these simple thoughts on a day to day basis, but more so how we can just like ground ourselves and connect with nature on a like in a lifestyle perspective, like over time. What do y'all think? Is it similar to y'all? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think my book also by virtue of being older and more like philosophical and spiritual like connects a lot to what your book was about.

My book opens with quote, the purpose of a book of meditations is to [00:14:00] teach you how to think and not to do your thinking for you. Think it speaks for itself. Yeah, that's well stated. I wanted to your earlier question about going through life and the flow of it, because part of it was saying you go through life and you wake up and you go to work and you go home and maybe go to the gym but you're too tired but you go anyway and then you try and watch TV and disconnect from stress of work, whatever, and she just emphasized the rat race that you are in just Trying to going through the motions every day and like how a lot of the time when you're experiencing doubt or negative emotions like one of the best things you can do is just stop for Five minutes and just think to yourself like am I happy right now?

Is this like fulfilling me and yeah, just a lot of the times like your gut is so powerful and a lot of times we like Tell, feed ourselves different stories and justify different things, but if you really sit with yourself and ask yourself What feels good for me? And what do I need to [00:15:00] be doing like a lot of the times the answers are like really in yourself people are just too scared or too busy to sit with that and Think about what really is important to them and what really would help them Lead the most authentic and fulfilling lives.

Yeah, definitely. And I feel like that relates specifically to college because we're in such a, we're in a silo where everyone's super high achieving and everyone's always trying to do more build their career. We often forget that like, where we are is really good.

We've done a lot of work and it's if you have that grounding and you understand the amount of work that you've done and you're proud of it, it really helps you push you to do more and motivates you to do other things without thinking that you're, like, lacking in something.

Absolutely. But I think that this generation is myself included, is so quick to look at the negative and only the negative. And I think that's why people pick up wellness books is they're looking for some sort of quick fix or some sort of explanation for why they're thinking this way. And I think that's why we've also, this generation has been in the conversation of wellness books and that's why wellness books have thrived in this generation as well.

It's cause I [00:16:00] think we're so hyper fixated on the negative. I feel like also what's helped them thrive in our generation is that We're in the generation of like convenience And so everything just comes like the touch of your fingers and like the swipe of a button. So I feel like we're very like predisposed to like Seeking out things that just come quick and are quick fixes But I think it's a nice awakening to be like, oh Something's so important Like you're like spiritual and mental well being is not something you can just like at the snap of your fingers fix It's like a process and a deep mindset shift that you have to undergo Yeah, absolutely.

And I think for in order of us in order for us to talk about spiritual illness in our books I feel like we have to define spiritual illness. So books aside, how would you guys define spiritual wellness?

I Feel like that's hard because I feel like spiritual wellness can be such a broad topic [00:17:00] and I think it really just depends on who you are as a person and What ways will help you find your own peace because I know everyone has like their different practices and stuff like that So for some people like having spiritual wellness could be just like meditation techniques, and then for other people, it could be like, I don't know, practicing their religion, like stuff like that.

So I feel like it's a very like spiritual and wellness when I think about it. It just seems very vague. It seems like a topic that kind of people need to figure out within themselves, like what their own spiritual wellness kind of means to them. Yeah, I agree with you. I think when people think spiritual wellness, they think Religion, and I don't think it has to always be that way.

Yeah, I think like spiritual wellness, like spirit is related to your identity. So as you said finding your purpose, figure out like who you are, what role do you want to play, those kind of things. So going back to the [00:18:00] books, did your book focus on spiritual wellness or did it tap a little bit into spiritual wellness?

I think my book did because, like I said, I feel like spiritual wellness is finding what works best for you. And my book talked a lot about getting to know yourself first before you try and understand the outside world. Because if you don't really know who you are, like, The world's just not gonna be like a very positive place and so it talks about like Understanding yourself and then finding techniques that will help you stay calm help you de stress and like stuff and a lot of the techniques I feel like can work for a lot of different types of people and there are also Multiple techniques that you can use if you are like I feel like a type A versus type B person like there are different things For everyone so I feel like my book did a pretty good job on that.

Yeah Can you go more in depth of some examples of that? Yeah I feel like for Type A people one of the examples would be just to take a deep breath, because Type A people [00:19:00] can get hyperfixated on doing something and get really stressed out easily, I feel and that was something, and for Type B people, they're more relaxed, which is why, like meditation was thrown out there for that. And I feel like that works because you're getting yourself like into a zone where you're not, your brain's not just like focusing on all these like different activities at once.

And so I feel like no matter what kind of person you are, there's stuff in this book that can help calm you down and help you find peace like within yourself. This is oh, go ahead. No, it feels related to that. I just had something like totally random. No, you can go. Okay, this is like just totally random, but similar.

If you guys could choose to be like type A or type B, what would you choose? Assuming like over time, like the productivity of like your work and career is the same maybe it's not unrelated to this. I would love to be a type B person, but I'm not. And I think with anything else, the grass is always greener.

But I have. I've been, I was always a type A person, and now in [00:20:00] college, I'm definitely more in the middle, which is where I'd like to be. I think that in some aspects, in some scenarios, it's great to have a plan, and it's great to know what's going on, and then there's some scenarios where it's great to just not care and say, hey, I get to it when I get to it, I'm going to do this when I do this, and that's it.

I think it's a lot. Like easier to move through the world as a type A person. Yeah, definitely. But I think like I personally have ADHD and that makes me a type B person. But even though like I want to be a type A person, but so I think that could be like also hard to like Because it like it yeah, it is.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I feel like being type B can sometimes be easier with like social relationships. Like just talking to people Like just going with the flow and like being easy like helps you like, talk to people better make plans if you're like So strict with your schedule or like super fixated on some things it can interrupt that part of your life There's definitely pros and cons.

Yeah, but yeah, I feel like I'm like productivity like work career side [00:21:00] Like our society really values you for your productivity. So I think Society would want everyone to be type A and just get the most done all the time But I think as humans we should Be more type B and just enjoy ourselves.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I think as you mentioned earlier, I think a type B person tends to get stressed less. So in regards to the world of mental health, I think the mental health world would support a type B person. But I don't know, maybe I'm speaking for type B people and that's not true.

Andy, I know your book, probably out of all of ours, was the most in connection with spiritual wellness. Can you give us a little overview of that? Yeah. All of this, a lot of the anecdotes were just sort of general truths. There's a lot of touching on the metaphor of like real and false selves as a sort of bigger analogy for things that we should and shouldn't be focused on and coming through.

Coming from the mouth of a Christian monk, a lot of his [00:22:00] solutions, although not quite harped on so much are meditation, are connection to spiritual things, are disregarding worldly, man made issues to an extent, I think you don't necessarily have to accept his sort of religious solution, but that is his, It's this impression of how to overcome just like the grind and the turmoil of the world.

So would you say your book was more, the audience of your book would be more religious people? I think it could be either one. I think that there's a lot of passages, especially the way that this book is edited. That is, that there's a bunch of different sections from bigger passages. Cut and mixed around.

So some passages go without mention of any sort of spiritual thing. And then all of a sudden it's like you have to put your faith in God, something like that. And you're like, whoa, where did this come [00:23:00] from? I think if you wanted to you can turn a blind eye to it and still take a lot of like deep philosophical value from the rest of it.

My book was, Like I said, it was, gave all these examples of ways to combat stress and anxiety and overthinking. Something as silly as like taking a deep breath and identify five things you can see, identify four things you can hear, three things you can touch, like stuff like that. It did touch a little bit spiritual wellness wise on meditation.

But not in a spiritual way more as a meditation as a way to combat stress kind of calm yourself down Focus yourself hinder yourself like within the present I Have a quote that says in meditation we cultivate awareness and come into the moment It talked about guided imagery as well as Visualization and company with meditation That was also Like really important to combat stress.

I know your book talked about [00:24:00] meditation. Yeah, but I do think my talk, my book talked a little more about it in a religious kind of way. The man who wrote my book practices like Buddhist traditions. And so he wanted to keep like the authenticity within the religion. So instead of mine, like mine is also very much like de stressing, like finding your peace, but it's also just because that is like something that's very common within like his traditions and it's something that he practiced a lot.

So mine is like pretty like similar to yours, but it also is like a little bit more on the like religious and like tradition side of things. Yeah, my book didn't talk about meditation much necessarily. It just thought about like I guess it could talk about the concepts and the benefits of meditations, like meditation outside of meditation, right?

Like, how do I ground yourself in general? How do I identify simplicity and like balance, like complexity of certain things? Yeah, that was, that's the main points there. Have you guys been like applying anything from your books yet? I know it's only been like a month ish or maybe a couple [00:25:00] weeks, but I feel like my book, a lot of the stuff that I Could apply as kind of stuff I've already been applying like I feel like my book It taught me like some new things But it more so just reassured some of the stuff that I already knew because like I said really it's Simple and compared to a lot of the other wellness books out there And mine, I definitely have just already been practicing most of those things, I would say.

It did help reassure that, but I don't feel like it brought me like, a ton of new practices I could use. I agree with how simplistic Nick Trenton's book was as well. I think, if anything, for me in my personal life, the book opened my eyes to be like, Oh, hey this is a stressor.

This is a stressor. This is how I could meditate to combat stress. Meditation isn't my thing, but just like little things that have opened my eyes a little bit more. What about you? Yeah. Definitely like some smaller things have come up. Just going with the flow is something I think I would work on.

I feel I didn't find myself, classify myself as a type a person. So trying to go with the flow and just [00:26:00] relax and not hyper fixate on the timings on my Google calendar. That would be definitely something that I've been trying to apply with. You said identifying stressors was something that I talked about.

Do you think that actually just adds more stress by trying to look for stressors? If you just forgot about these things and didn't care and just just did your work, like would you even think about these stressors? And does that stress you out in general? Yes and no. I think, If you're constantly searching for stressors, then yes.

And I think reading the book makes me more aware of them. And that is just another thing to think about, which is just adding to stress in itself, which is also a critique, I think, that this book does, like I said earlier, is that it makes everything so simplistic when I feel like it shouldn't be.

Gotcha. Something I liked was that she was just like talking about like how so many people are always striving for perfection But can't even define what it is. So I think something that I've been adding to my life is like If I see myself trying to strive for perfection, I have to step back and think about Oh, for this task what would perfection even look like?

And then I [00:27:00] most often can't even really define it. And then I'm like, okay, and if I did get to that standard, how would that make me feel? And then I realized that I wouldn't even feel all that great. So I think it's helped me With my priorities and like how much time to spend on things and just really evaluating what actually Fulfills me because it certainly isn't striving for some unattainable expectation or goal.

Absolutely, and I understand the idea of Striving not striving for something that's unattainable, but do you ever feel like you're selling yourself short?

I think it really depends on What you're like overarching kind of goal is in life. If my goal in life was to become the most successful wealthy person and maximize my skills and capabilities yeah, definitely. I'm selling myself short. But I think I think my goal is to achieve more of a balance and obviously be, like, [00:28:00] working towards my long term goals and investing in myself a bit every day, but also Taking time to enjoy each day and what's special about each day because I don't even know if I'm going to be here until like I can see if those investments pay off and I think that balance is important because I think it would be worse to look back and realize that you didn't enjoy every day as if that was like the only day that was there.

And I think that's a mindset that you've probably learned, or learned a little bit from the book. Andy, I know that yours was, like, super old and super philosophical. Is there anything that you could or would take away from that book, that, to implement in your personal life? Yeah, I don't really implement things so much as because my book wasn't really any sort of instruction.

It was really mostly just commentating on the ills of society, and these are things that permeate to this day. It is funny to see Merton complain about the news and how newspapers, you you wake up [00:29:00] and you immediately start reading newspapers and you're like, scan the newspaper mindlessly.

And it's he would have a cow over social media and technology. So it's these things are still prominent to this day. Yeah, I do find myself thinking a lot about different passages of Things that happened to me in my life and it like reminds me of this passage and it makes me think a little deeper about maybe what he was talking about and how it can be applied to my life.

So I guess for the last couple minutes if we could go around, maybe, would you recommend your book as a spiritual wellness book? Would you recommend it at all? And then who would be the who's the audience, someone to buy your book? I would recommend mine as a book and a spiritual wellness book.

I think that the audience would be more of people who are just looking to live a simplistic kind of lifestyle, where they're not constantly just doing everything. This is not a book for people who have had trauma. Like in their life. It's more a book for people who just if you get easily stressed out Then [00:30:00] here's like a few things you can do, you know Wake up in the morning and think it's gonna be a peaceful day like stuff like that And so I think that it is a good spiritual book.

It is a good book overall. I just think that the audience would be People who are just looking for like little tips to help grow their mental health a little bit, but not necessarily I don't think this is necessarily a book for if you need actual help with your mental health, kind of thing.

I think my book is for anyone, really. And I think I would definitely recommend it, just because she speaks so conversationally, and I think that is reflected in her authenticity score. I think she was the author out of all the books with the highest authenticity score, which I think is a big draw for the book because you don't want to feel like you're being lectured or someone's being too preachy.

I think the way that she can deliver her advice in a way that's very accessible to [00:31:00] readers. I think that is a very big draw for me. And yeah, I would definitely recommend this book. Yeah, I definitely recommend the book for anyone. Who wants to get into spiritual wellness in general. I think the good audience would be anybody who has some drive to understand like philosophical like understandings behind like why we're doing things.

But like just generally it's a good book. It can only help. Yeah. I also highly recommend my book for anyone who's interested in spiritual wellness or philosophical wellness. You don't necessarily have to have any sort of religion to really get meaning out of this book. Merton touches on a lot of different religious activities and behaviors.

And I think it's just really good for anyone who's just disillusioned with the way that society is and the way that it's going. Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't call mine a spiritual wellness book. It did touch on meditation, but not in a spiritual way. It was more of a getting rid of anxiety way. I would recommend it as a mental health wellness book.

Exactly what you said. [00:32:00] Probably. People with heavy baggage looking for a solution, this probably isn't the book for them. As it is super simplistic, it's, oh I have, I carry a lot of anxiety with me during the day. Let me find some ways to maybe combat this, or maybe make it make myself more aware of it.

I don't think people with severe trauma reading this book would find any sort of fix. In regards to spiritual wellness, I don't, I wouldn't recommend it. I think maybe your book is a better route. This has really been an informative conversation. I feel like I've got a great sense of what these books do well and why they might be of interest to wellness readers.

Thanks to Sydney, Meg, Manny, Arnav, and Andy. And thanks to our listeners. Stay tuned for another episode of Words of Wellness.